Monday, 27 February 2017

'Potential victims'

According to the mail, certain alleged victims of Sir Edward Heath have already discussed making compensation claims for sexual abuse .. '

Not exactly supportive for the 'alleged victims' or the Police it goes on 

 That would be their chief constable's 'report' allegedly due out in June. It might be next June now given that the bloke in charge of the actual investigation has, thrown a sickie ! 

 The telegraph ups the ante - anti-investigation stance, a 'source' suggesting the negative impact that this pesky 'investigation' might be having on real police work

Are ordinary Policemen getting sick of having to believe any old shit because of policies foisted on them by their superiors and their superiors at Fleet Street ? Who the hell knows. One thing's for sure, the paedo label is still being affixed to folk both living and dead, no trial or investigation necessary !

 In August 2015 the cops were considering just a 'limited inquiry' into the claims made against Heath believing it would give 'Potential victims validation more quickly than a full investigation' Bit like that 'closure' thing they used as an excuse to NOT investigate the Savile claims. 

Save money, pay compensation or do it properly. The telegraph were seemingly able to draw from a pool of 'sources' for their material

Sean should get Full pay for six months maybe longer ! Haven't noticed any adverts in the press offering cash for Heath stories, like they did with Savile, so who knows - maybe Sir Edward's old home will be safe. 




  1. When the going gets tough, the Establishment gets going.

    Same media claimed Jimmy was the tip of an iceberg

  2. That's terrible about that 100-year-old. Hope he has good lawyers.

    I posted this question on Moor's site too, but thought I'd ask you too, Rabbitaway. Do you happen to know where the Savile allegations originated? Was it with one of the Duncroft women or was it with David Icke, or did he just try to take credit retrospectively? In view of this, could there have been gossip flying around before then, e.g. online? If there was general verbal gossip when he was alive (was there?), I wonder when it made the shift from being verbal to being put down in black and white.

    1. Sorry but you asking a bit too much there. Try looking it up online. Just too busy TBH

    2. I do know how to use Google to do historic searches, but wouldn't know where to start with this. Just wondered if you knew.

    3. Apologies if I was short there ! I have no idea which came first I'm sure Moor Larkin maintains that Icke never mentioned Savile until after his death. Obviously, the Duncroft women did, hence the 2007 investigation. As for rumours, who knows when they started. Jimmy was well aware of them that's for sure, hence the Louis Theroux conversation in 1999/2000. If I can think of any more I'll get back to you. Google is so easy BTW, anything I want to know I just bang it in. Big smiley face to you x

    4. Anonymous, Moor may well be able to come up with something better, but I hope the following will be of some help.

      As far as I recall, Newsnight’s investigation began with Meirion Jones picking something up on internet forums, Karin Ward’s ‘memoir’ and his own recollections of Duncroft. But there were certainly rumours flying about much earlier.

      Lynn Barber interviewed JS for the Independent on Sunday in 1990. They reproduced the article here.

      “What he says about tabloid journalists is true. There has been a persistent rumour about him for years, and journalists have often told me as a fact: “Jimmy Savile? Of course, you know he’s into little girls.” But if they know it, why haven’t they published it?”

      Paul Connew claimed *after the fact* to have met two women in 1994 who said they had been abused by JS at a children’s home. Roy Greenslade mentions it here.

      ‘Though "totally and utterly convinced" they were telling the truth, the paper's lawyers, after a careful assessment, decided it wasn't strong enough to risk publication.’

      There was also the 1999 spoof Have I Got News For You transcript. Then, there’s When Louis met Jimmy (2000), which perhaps echoes Lynn Barber’s piece. Moor posted fairly recently on popbitch’s Rev. Goatboy here. And Dame Janet Smith’s review (pdf file) included the following (p56 par 70).

      “An interesting point was made by Dr Peter Scott-Morgan, who, as a consultant, carried out some research for the BBC in 2003. In the course of his work, Dr Scott-Morgan spoke to a large number of BBC staff. One idea which he was exploring was that there might be a group of people, ‘the Talent’, who were so important to the BBC that their behaviour was outside any real control. Dr Scott-Morgan picked up rumours about Savile’s sexual conduct when talking to staff and began to use him as an example of a member of the Talent who, in the past, had been able to get away with unacceptable behaviour – in his case sexual misconduct with young girls. Dr Scott-Morgan found that a significant proportion of the people to whom he mentioned Savile immediately showed that they understood the point. In other words, the suggestion that Savile had got away with inappropriate sexual behaviour was not news to them.”

      How or whether any of this stuff ties together, I couldn’t say. Anyway, there’s a bit for you to be going on with. If you can make any sense of it all, please do share!

      It’s probably worth noting that anyone who’s spent any time around the media or entertainment industries will have heard all kinds of outrageous rumours about all kinds of (often highly respected) people. I think Moor and Rabbit have documented Jim’s own awareness of people having strange ideas about him. Given that JS was (within the UK) just about as famous as it’s possible to be, for the better part of half a century, and that he got out and about, meeting members of the public just about as much as is humanly possible, and was also, by his own admission, ‘odd’, I would imagine that there was an awful lot of gossip. He also upset a fair few people along the way, not least at Stoke Mandeville.

    5. Thanks so much for that Misa - great stuff

    6. No worries, Rabbit. Despite being a horribly long comment, it's actually quite a short list. Can you think of anything I've missed?

      I guess the Anthony Clare interview and one or two other similar items (The Obituary Show?) help spread the story of his strangeness, particularly with regard to the Duchess. I'm still not sure how the 'fascination with the dead' angle really developed. There appear to have been two elements; mourning the Duchess, and taking bodies down to the morgue. In both cases, he talks about the 'privilege' of being with them. Can you think when the first suggestion that he had 'an unnatural interest' in death first emerged?

    7. The children of the Seventies were the satirists of the Nineties. Much of what has happened is Iconoclasm gone mental in an age of mass information and little thought.

    8. "The satirists of the nineties were children." Couldn't agree more. Time for the grown-ups to sort things out.

    9. Misa, thank you very much for replying in such depth. Your reply very interesting. It seems to me that exploring the origin of the claims would be a worthwhile subject for researchers, as surely all other claims stem from them. If the first person to tell the story was telling the truth, everyone else saying "me too" could be either telling the truth or lying, but if the first person just made it up, surely everyone else did too.

      Anyone know whether that repository of Anna Raccoon's posts at Edinburgh University has led to any research or whether any academics are looking into the Savile claims?

    10. Anon, I'm not sure what's happened with Anna's archive. I understand Anna herself is hanging in there, though no longer active. Mark Smith, whom I believe was involved in Edinburgh obtaining Anna's material, provided a chapter for Ros Burnett's book on Wrongful Allegations. I'm not sure whether either Rabbit or Moor have had any contact with him, but would think that he may be contactable through Twitter, and I guess his university email address ought to be reasonably easy to locate.

      I see that is accessible for now, and the Wayback Machine should preserve most of it.

      Regarding my little list, below, I wonder whether this might be one way of trying to catalogue the whole affair. The list is an attempt to catalogue the rumours circulating whilst he was alive. It probably needs half a dozen more items, as far as I can tell at the moment, and could include links to original items, as well as links to posts by Moor, Rabbit, and Anna, as and where appropriate. Putting together a list like that requires a bit of donkey work, and would probably need to be updated from time to time, but is not that difficult. If it were supplemented by a handful of other lists (obituaries; reports between death and the broadcast of Exposure; a chronology of the month or so following Exposure; NHS reports; police reports; BBC reports) it might just make a useful catalogue of all the work Rabbit, Moor, Anna and others have done, as well as providing an overview of the whole affair.

      I'd be happy to hear comment as to whether you, or anyone else thinks that would be worthwhile, and how it should be structured.


    12. I'm really going to have to cough up and read John's book, aren't I. Are you suggesting that he sets things out in this fashion?


    I think you might like this ;)

  4. Misa I can't see what the problem with your comment publishing might be. Try describing it in a comment if u can so Moor can maybe have a look as he uses blogger too.

  5. Not too surprising that blogger was reluctant to post that. I hope it makes some sense. I've tried to list and link to things that may have played a part in allowing everyone to rememeber that they'd 'known' about Savile all along.

    Obviously, the Lydon claim didn't surface until much later. Several of them require a certain amount of imagination to 'recognise' that they were hinting at any illegal behaviour at all. And some are simply interviews in which Jim made comments that are now seen as 'evidence' of something or other.

    1. Ah, hell. It was there, and now it's gone.

  6. Here's the list without the links.

    1978 John Lydon interview for BBC not broadcast
    1988 Jerry Sadowitz stand up (touring?)
    1988 Krishnan Guru-Murthy Open to Question
    1990 Lynn Barber, Interview in The Independent
    1991 Drop the Dead Donkey S02 E04
    1991 Anthony Clare In the Psychiatrist’s Chair
    1992 The Obituary Show Channel 4
    1994 Paul Connew, Sunday Mirror, met two accusers, not published
    1994 Chris Morris Music Show, BBC Radio 1
    1995 Andrew Neil, Is This Your Life? Channel 4
    1996 Irvine Welsh novella, Ecstasy
    1997 Val McDermid novel, The Wire in the Blood
    1998 This Morning With Richard Not Judy, S01E01, BBC 2
    1998 Skinner & Baddiel, Fantasy World Cup, ITV
    1999 This Morning With Richard Not Judy, S02E04, BBC 2
    1999 HIGNFY spoof transcript and actual appearance, S17 E07
    2000 Louis Theroux, When Louis Met Jimmy
    2000 Gimme Gimme Gimme, BBC 2, possibly 1999
    2000 Skinner & Baddiel Unplanned , S01E07
    2001-2007 Reverend Goatboy, Popbitch
    2003 BBC Management Consultant spreading rumours, DJS Report p56 par 70
    2007 That Mitchell and Webb Look BBC 2/HD
    2007 Surrey Police Operation Ornament
    2008 Sun Article re Savile visiting Haut de la Garenne
    2009 David Icke Forum, Jimmy Savile…Again, with refs to some of the above

    1. not only but also... from the BBC itself...

    2. Misa - just having lunch I'll see if I can find and attach the links. Thank you x

    3. 1975 Till Death Do Us Part S07E03 BBC 1

      Thanks, Moor, that's helpful. I suppose I should probably include the autobiography, or at least the newspaper version, with the 'dark side' or whatever it was.

    4. I really must buy John Marsh's and it will be the first one I get when I get round to buying a Kindle. I saw an contents page or something like that last year and it sets it all out in chronological order (as far as I remember).

  7. Misa


  9. That will do for now - anyone who wants can copy the item and paste it into browser. If it's a youtube video just paste it there ! Thank Misa great work x

    1. Thanks, Rabbit. Sorry to put you out. I still have the full set of links here if anyone wants them.

    2. Can't see why you cannot attach them Misa. It's a pain

    3. It's just html links, I think, Rabbit. I could probably either break the list into a few chunks (but I don't know how small each chunk would need to be) or I could just list the links in the way you have, but then it's hard to keep track of which is which.

      It's hard to be sure which ones are of any significance. The 1998-2000 batch seems interesting, but I can't help feeling that Popbitch and the BBC management consultant probably had the greater influence. Though Sadowitz might well have inspired most of that group.

    4. Hold on, I've been asleep - I'll complete the links asap

  10. - Couldn't find full version or spoof

    When Jimmy met Jimmy -