Let's go back to the beginning of Yewtree. After all, this investigation has been kind of established (at least to the satisfaction of Justice Mann, who prefers the Police's media officer's evidence to that of Mr Johnson), as the originating 'source' of the 'source', if you get my drift !
Operation Yewtree started in October 2012 following the ITV broadcast of 'Exposure - the other side of Jimmy Savile'. The Police said they would not be investigating the Savile claims because he was dead, but they would be going after living subjects. And they did, several high profile arrests followed, but NONE of these involved a 'world famous pop legend' did they ?
Note the date of the 'update' a few weeks after Cliff's raid ! Coincidence ? I think not ! Please also note, that this is from the Daily Mirror who describes the complainant as 'convicted sex offender' who allegedly made this claim to Police officers in 2008.
I include this article only as a point of reference as to the gossip online and in print around the time that Cliff's accuser had allegedly, contacted Mark Williams-Thomas. Stay with me folks.
On the 22nd August 2014 the Telegraph published this
2013 ? Exactly when in 2013 was this allegation made to Yewtree ? I should add that the Mirror's 'sex offender' allegedly supplied Police officers with some 'list'. That would be the Elm Guest House 'list' I presume ?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jimmy-savile-sex-abuse-scandal-1491904
So, the Police were allegedly investigating a pop legend as early as December 2012 ? Really ? As far as I'm aware, the Police were not even aware of any accusations until Mark WT's accuser eventually made his way to Scotland Yard in 2013. In February 2013 MWT was bragging about how he'd ran his Savile investigation 'like a criminal investigation'. The final paragraph saying
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/feb/24/mark-williams-thomas-jimmy-savile
The response on twitter ?
MWT's twitter time line became a magnet for the 'nutter bus' crowd, as I endearingly call them. Liars and shit-stirrer's is of course, a more appropriate description. How much damage have these people's gossip caused ?
Now, here's an eye opener folks ! You know before Justice Mann issued his decision on Cliff V the BBC and SYP, he ordered a Home Affairs SElect committee to attempt to identify Johnson's original source. Of course, he wanted to KNOW if that person had actually been a serving Police officer, or someone else involved in Operation Yewtree. Well, Go Judge Mann !
In this Press Gazette article the accuser was still making his way to Scotland Yard in 'late 2013'
Mr Justice Mann said the singer wanted to
know whether the BBC’s source was from “within Operation Yewtree” or
someone who had obtained information from Operation Yewtree.
He said he had weighed Sir Cliff’s
rights to a fair trial against journalists’ rights to protect sources
before reaching a decision.
All parties in High Court trial had, earlier in the month, agreed a 'ceasefire' during which a settlement might be reached.
The singer, who has sued the BBC and complained that his human right to
respect for private life was infringed, said reporter Dan Johnson “knew
full well” that information acquired from a police source had been
“covertly” disclosed
The question any reasonable person would now ask is :
Why would someone involved in the the Operation Yewtree investigation wait all that time, from late 2013 until July 2014, to leak the story to Dan Johnson. Remember, we're referring to the fact that CR was being investigated, NOT the home invasion raid (which, of course hadn't as yet been conceived).
We're being asked to believe some nonsense aren't we ? Johnson admitted reading the rumours about CR online. Did he even need a Police source ?
Anyway, that's enough from me for now. Cliff is, as I type, still alive. He can sue those who peddled nasty stories about him online. How delicious would it be, if the same person who began the Savile thing on the basis that the man was dead, so he couldn't sue, was sued himself, for this !
Happy Days
Will Justice Mann get his man ? Who knows, we can wait !
Bastard, hiding in plain sight, along with all the other bastards.
ReplyDeleteOf some interest: I found this post on a Sheffield forum, from somebody who had actually been at the rally where Cliff allegedly did the molesting: https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11417790&postcount=111
ReplyDeleteA couple of pages later, the poster says that she contacted the police at the time of the raid on Cliff's house and offered to make a witness statement but never heard anything back.
The amusing thing is that the BBC resisted answering the question of whether the source was part of or connected to Yewtree on the grounds that this could identify the source which was contrary to journalistic principles.
ReplyDeleteMr Justice Mann however found that it was relevant to the case and that given around 150 officers within the Met would have access to the info it wouldn't identify source.
Of course since a certain 'high profile' suspect was not being named, the BBC couldn't retort that the person might have a high 'media profile' in the matter.
So BBC stymied by their own refusal.
To get back to the events. The 'source' contacted Johnson saying 'you cover Sheffield don't you?' Johnson being by that time the North eastern BBC reporter but previously S Yorks.
Did the 'source' give him a story or a lead? The source from the contemp SYP notes had given him the fact that CR was under investigation re allegation as was and this was from 'Yewtree'. The source knew the case had been referred to SYP - which would mean SYP were intending to do something, but clearly the source had no direct access to SYP which was why DJ ran the line of demanding info on the search otherwise he would print the story he had. (Termed 'blackmail' in the DSupts contemp notes).
It was said in court that the BBC would not have run the story and SYP should have realised this, but SYP were sufficiently alarmed to give him advance info and perform a mutually useful operation to 'shake the tree'.
So what was in it for 'source'? My guess: source was in touch not so much with Yewtree by this time but with complainant. We know MWT was in constant touch with complainant and he continued as his 'intermediary'. Now, complainants, as per the 'victims code' are entitled to updates about the 'investigation'
So it's quite possible, if not probable that complainant was briefed by Met that his complaint was being taken up by SYP who would be acting on it etc - ie all the info that DJ had. So source, if person with media interest, decides to tempt a rival mega media outlet with the lead - his intention being - mega coverage of the event without his being implicated as the journo or source and SYP would never have leaked the info to him. So then , past the sale, the source picks up on the intended consequences - loads of pub and lots of new allegations etc which eventually he can use as mega story - maybe his intended documentary on Elm Guest house? Without ever having to admit his role in 'pump priming' or shaking the tree or whatever you want to call the con.
I should have added that it's quite possible, in not probable, that SYP briefed the complainant as to intended action in a vague way - in line with the 'victim's code'.
Delete"the police would not be investigating the Savile claims as he was dead" we were also told by Spindler that they wouldn't be classed as a crime as you cannot pin a crime on a dead man. BUT when several members of Caroline Robinson'a family made police statements that categorically proved she was a liar, WYP still recorded her claims as a CRIME, yeah you read that right....... WYP have made legal history........ What can you do??? She HAD to be believed and the laws of the country HAD to be moulded to suit Savilisation.
ReplyDeleteWell done Rabbit on this and all your blogs thank you for your never ending support and friendship. #whenwillitbeourturn
Hi Amanda you have a relative, a young girl who is trying to get in touch she is your biological cousin and had contacted you on Moors blog. She is needing as much closure as you do and if you want to get in touch let us know and we can arrange something in private. Thanks.
DeleteI'll ask one more time...... Who are her parents? If she's my cousin one of my Aunts or Uncles is her parent, which one? I also need to know how old she is.
DeleteYour uncle is her dad... she's a relative of SJS.
DeleteMWT certainly seems to have had close contact with Operation Yewtree at the end of November 2012, as he tweeted this "currently":
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/status/274181776283406337?lang=en
Regarding the Mirror piece - "That would be the Elm Guest House 'list' I presume ?" - I don't think the Elm rubbish appeared until much later than 2008.
ReplyDeleteI'd take it all with a pinch of salt as the claim that a list was handed to a probation officer and that it is "understood" that it was then passed on to the coppers in 2008 is not backed up by the recorded allegations on page 9 of 'Giving Victims A Voice':
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/research-reports/yewtree-report-giving-victims-voice-jimmy-savile.pdf
However, the "paedo" making the claim who was in Whitemoor Prison (which "includes a Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder Unit") seems likely to be "Mr A, a serial violent sex offender and rapist who is a continued danger to the public" who appears in the Mail here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658986/How-Sir-Cliff-smeared-serial-rapist-blackmailer-dodgy-minister-real-crime-dossier-reveals-police-took-seriously.html
"While in custody, Mr A took note as Labour’s Tom Watson, who is now the party’s deputy leader, made a string of sensational allegations of VIP child abuse using the privilege afforded to MPs in the House of Commons...
... Many of Mr Watson’s now discredited claims concerned alleged events at Elm Guest House in south-west London in the 1980s.
Sir Cliff was among a number of celebrities to be falsely linked on the internet with abuse at the small hotel, which was a popular haunt of gay men.
A handwritten list of famous names — politicians, pop stars, spies and senior clergymen — was hawked about by conspiracy theorists as proof of an Establishment paedophile plot...
... But Mr A constructed a story in which, as a boy, he was molested by Sir Cliff at, yes, Elm Guest House, in 1982. The ‘ordeal’ was what had turned him into a sexual predator, he claimed."
So I think the year 2008 is a complete invention to make it appear as though the claims predated the Savile/Elm bullshit which started in 2012. At least this is what I have "understood" to be the case, as an oily journo might say!
^ I understand that most people that comment here are probably not fans of Tom Watson, but that article, it seems to me fingers him unfairly and he would probably have legitimate reasons to complain about it if he wasn't so busy these days what with him being Labour Deputy Leader and all.
DeleteHe never accused Cliff of any abuse, whether by implication or otherwise. His reference in the Parly Q he asked in October 2012 was to do with the CSA network involving the late Peter Righton and the now imprisoned Charles Napier. The problem Watson has is that he seemed to be trying to slur the Tories by association as he referred (by implication) to Napier's half-brother John Whittingdale There is no evidence that Mr Whittingdale approved of his half-brother's activities.
I suggest that this front page from the tabloid the Sunday People, presumably written by a journalist who had seen the Elm Guest House 'lists', might have been a more likely impetus for false complainants to come forward. They didn't name Cliff, but they knew what they were doing.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-seize-vip-list-in-dawn-1546351
It's a fair point UP to a point, TDF, though I don't think we'll ever truly know where that 'point' lies (eh?!?).
DeleteWhile it's true that the Mail article mixes things up a little it's worth remembering that Watson didn't limit himself to a single question in Parliament:
"He [Chris Fay] repeated allegations [Elm Guest House] he had been making since Mrs Kasir’s death to Mr Watson in 2013. Mr Watson then passed Fay’s details to police, which had begun an investigation into Elm Guest House in December 2012."
Watson was not Fay's MP.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11893906/VIP-child-abuse-ring-accuser-served-time-in-prison-for-fraud.html
"Tom Watson just asked me [Chris Fay] to tell him about everything I knew. He had asked me specifically about Elm Guest House but obviously there were other related matters."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3267099/Devastating-questions-Labour-s-smearmonger-answer-not-does-brand-TORIES-child-sex-abusers.html
Watson also took a special interest in the case of 'Jane', an accuser of the OTHER big name on the 'list': Leon Brittan. Again, Watson was not 'Jane's' MP.
One of Brittan's accusers was the cruelly exploited Andrew Ash - or 'Darren' as he was confusingly named in the Panorama debunking - who came directly from Fay (and Baloney).
Another accuser of Brittan who impressed Watson with his tales of woe will shortly be appearing in court so we'd maybe better say no more at the moment.
There are overlapping threads here, perhaps, but no one did more to finger Cliff (at Elm) than Fay (with that great team of 'transcribers' and bloggers!), no one did more to bolster the Elm Tale than Exaro (particularly Hencke) and no one did more to help Exaro than Watson.
I don't think anyone would accuse Watson of being a loose cannon in the mould of, say, John Mann - and whatever happened to HIS various dossiers and claims of murder and such?!? - so while we might be unable to pin Cliff DIRECTLY on Watson I think we'd be selling him short to imagine him as an innocent fool.
Well, points taken Bandini, and in particular as regards neither 'Jane' nor Fay (nor for that matter 'Nick') living in Watson's constituency. One of the reasons I'm not as harsh on Zac Goldsmith as you is that the Elm Guest House WAS located in his constituency, and he presumably genuinely believed the claims he was presented with (as I did myself, back then, so also for that reason I can't be too critical of him).
DeleteZac Goldsmith?
DeleteBut he made the idiotic claims in November 2014, not 2012!
"I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for securing the debate... ... The Westminster paedophile ring, which has now become a murder investigation... ... We need only consider the Elm guest house in Barnes... ... Allegedly — we are reliably told this — 12 boys gave evidence in 1982 that they had been abused... ... a child protection campaigner from the National Association Of Young People In Care called for a criminal investigation into events at Elm guest house. He said he had been told by Mrs Kasir that boys had been brought in from a local children’s home — Grafton Close, also in Richmond — for sex, and that she had photographs of establishment figures at her hotel. One of them apparently showed a former Cabinet Minister in a sauna with a naked boy. She had logbooks, names, times, dates, pictures of her customers and so on. All that evidence simply disappeared after the raids and no longer exists. That is astonishing.... ... Who would just dismiss this stuff as fantasy?
... Above all, I wish to pay tribute to the extraordinary work by the investigative journalists at Exaro, particularly David Hencke... ... Exaro is crucial; David Hencke has encyclopaedic knowledge of something that I do not ever want to have encyclopaedic knowledge of, and he is an extraordinary figure...."
Funny, 'cos Hencke likes to pretend that his "investigation" had nowt to do with Fay and bullshit about photos but instead was based on the neighbours moaning about being unable to find a parking spot due to all the Rollers pulling up outside Elm no later than 1982! But there he was, in November of the year 2014, pushing this bullshit via Goldsmith.
And of course, if we were to believe in photos of ministers in saunas (in Nov. 2014) we'd no doubt be believers in a certain Cliff Richard being a visitor at Elm. I think you cut them too much slack, TDF!
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-11-27/debates/14112768000002/HistoricalChildSexAbuse#contribution-14112768000290
Bandini, ok, fine.
DeleteSo what do you think Zac Goldsmith was up to then? If I recall correctly, you have claimed at some point or other that he was angling towards the Tory leadership. That was a silly claim of yours, as Goldsmith has NEVER been seriously proposed as a Tory leader, or even a minister. He is far too much of a maverick for that (now, granted, it's easier to be a political maverick if you have a multi-million trust fund behind you).
" I recall correctly, you have claimed at some point or other that he was angling towards the Tory leadership. That was a silly claim of yours..."
DeleteEr, it might have been a silly claim of someone else, TDF... if I ever made it it's fallen through the gaps of my memory.
That opening sentence 👍
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be great if it were true.
I stopped following people on SM who have done nothing but join in with accusations against the gentleman I met called Jimmy Savile.
Rabbit, I know you'll never give up on this, thank you for your brilliant articles and blogs. Standing up for people who can't speak for themselves. Great job Rabbit 👍
Lovely to hear such kind words Julie. I too am grateful to Rabbit. Kind regards Amanda x
ReplyDeleteJimmy's daughter is grateful too.
Delete